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Vinny's Tottenham Report
Vinny 1:14 Mon Nov 26
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Tottenham Hotspur 3 West Ham United 1
A poor performance saw West Ham lose at White Hart Lane with former Hammer Jermaine Defoe scoring two goals in a comfortable victory for the home side.
This was a game in which West Ham struggled to get going and Spurs were good value for their victory with as they opened the scoring just before half time which helped send them on their way to an easy three points.
Although we can look at the fact that last season they were finishing 4th in the Premiership and us 3rd in the division below, you cannot help but disappointed with the display as I think a number of West Ham supporters thought that we could get something from this game given our good form and that Spurs were going into the game having lost their last three.
But ultimately they had far too much for us and we looked weak throughout the ninety minutes and once that first goal went in any optimism soon faded.
There is of course another talking point and likely the main theme that this game will be forever remembered for and that is the chanting from the West Ham supporters towards the Spurs fans.
Now I love a bit of banter at an away game and when you give some to the opposition support you expect to get some back. Both sets of fans will try to goad the other and wind them up but some of the things I heard during this game were crossing a line.
I don’t want to get all dramatic about it and there are many counter arguments but simply put – singing songs about fans of Tottenham being stabbed in Rome earlier in the week is taking things a bit too far.
The majority of the travelling West Ham support were joining in with ‘Forza Lazio’ so do not let it be said that this was a minority. I have seen comments that due to the Paolo Di Canio connection it was not strange that we would chant this but I find it very odd that I have never, ever heard this before at a West Ham game.
The simple fact is the ONLY reason this was chanted was in relation to Spurs playing Lazio the previous Thursday and a Spurs fan being attacked and stabbed.
Another line I’ve seen is that ‘Spurs would do the same to us’. I’m not sure how that makes it right to be so crass in our chants.
Other beauties were “Can we stab you every week’? and when Spurs player Sandro was being taken off on a stretcher “Just like in Italy’. We had “Always look out for eytie’s with knives” and then the usual anti-Semitic songs about the Jews and a new one ‘Adolf Hitler, he’s coming for you’.
Some may say that people shouldn’t take football chants too seriously but I look at that selection of comments and I can’t say I feel much pride. In fact I think anyone who made such chants (and a good 80% of you who were there did) need to take a long hard look at yourself.
What makes these chants even more disappointing is the fact that I believe we have great support especially away from home where we are loud, witty and humorous. As a club we have quite a number of West Ham related songs to sing yet this is the path we chose to go down.
I don’t like going to Tottenham and haven’t enjoyed going there for some time. There are many reasons, with the main ones being we usually get beat and that I find it difficult being surrounded by so many Tottenham fans at the same time.
There is still a bit of tension when you get there and when you come out of the ground which is rare to experience today in top flight football. All in all, I never enjoy my day there and have no intention of returning for those reasons and a few others.
I am sure I will be accused of being ‘precious’ but at the end of the day it is a personal thing and I’m just not the type of person who thinks chants about football supporters being stabbed is a fun thing to do. Also I do not support Lazio so I am also not really taken to chanting their name.
Whatever other clubs chant and shout is up to them but West Ham are not a nasty club and we have a lot of good people supporting us. Nothing that was said in this game against Tottenham reflects well on us whether you agree with the chants or not.
The Team
Sam Allardyce made no changes to the side that drew 1-1 with Stoke City last Monday night.
The only change came on the substitute’s bench with George Moncur receiving a place.
Starting for Tottenham was former Hammer Jermaine Defoe who played 72 times between 2000 and 2004 scoring 41 goals.
The referee was 41 year old Andre Marriner from Birmingham.
First Half
Whilst it took Tottenham until a minute before half time to open the scoring it was always they who looked most likely to break the deadlock.
Although they did see a lot of the ball and were the only side looking to attack, most of their shots were coming from outside the area.
With seven minutes gone we were given our first yellow card of the day with Joey O’Brien going into the book for a recklessly mistimed challenged on Gareth Bale. There was little doubt and about the validity of this caution.
It seemed that we were simply looking to counter attack but with few players with any pace to move forward even at an early stage in the first half it seemed that this would be a big ask.
If we did have an outlet on the wing it was Modibo Maiga but every time he received the ball in the opening ten minutes he surrendered possession.
With eleven minutes gone Spurs came very close to opening the scoring as the excellent Bale burst forward and hit a powerful shot at goal which beat Jaaskelainen but crashed off the underside of the cross bar with the follow up header from Dempsey easily saved.
Our passing was as bad as it could have been and it seemed as though our only route to goal was going to be the long ball forward to Andy Carroll. On one occasion a free kick played in by Reid saw Carroll get his head to the ball but it looped wide for a goal kick.
The home side had all the pace and that was causing us problems as Aaron Lennon raced forward only to be taken out by Mark Noble in a terribly poor challenge which saw Noble booked.
With things not going our way Allardyce made a surprise substitution on 31 minutes with Maiga coming off and Matt Jarvis replacing him. Whilst it is perhaps a little harsh on Maiga given that he is not a winger the fact is he couldn’t keep the ball and was extremely poor.
I thought we then began to come into the game a little more as an attacking force (though that is not saying much) and that with Spurs mainly having all their efforts from long range we could go in at half time happy with the first half display but such is the fine line between good and bad performance the goal Spurs scored on 44 minutes changed it all.
Jermaine Defoe received the ball on the right hand side, came inside, turned away from Reid and then checked back onto his right foot evading the weak challenge from Noble and he belted the shot just inside the right hand post to make it 1-0.
It was gutting to have conceded with half time just a moment away and we knew that we would now have to chase the game and I was concerned with the way we were set up to how we would actually do that.
Second Half
Only moments into the second period and we were under pressure after Noble gave away one of those fouls that he is prone to do. Bale stepped up thinking he was Ronaldo but his dipping free kick went wide.
We did have our first meaningful chance in a well-constructed move as Nolan flicked the ball to Jarvis but he got no power on his effort and the keeper easily saved.
This was not to be the start of West Ham pressure and it was the hosts who again came at us with Defoe hitting a shot which was well blocked by Tomkins.
Matthew Taylor came on for Gary O’Neil after 55 minutes.
Two minutes later we had our best chance of the game and one we should have taken. A ball over the top saw Kevin Nolan break the offside trap and race towards the area. Jarvis was in space and a good ball across would have seen a tap in but the pass was too short and the Spurs keeper claimed to the dismay of Jarvis and all the West Ham fans.
Just a minute later it was effectively game over as Tottenham scored their second goal. Dempsey was given time to pick out a pass through the middle to Gareth Bale who kept his composure and finished off the post to make it 2-0.
Just after the hour mark Defoe brought down Tomkins and having already been booked in the first half I think many West Ham fans expected Marriner to produce a second yellow but as usual there was no bottle from the referee and only a free kick was awarded.
65 minutes saw Spurs score their third goal and turn the day into an even more miserable affair.
Spurs carved us open through the middle again as Diame lost the ball and Lennon got into the area and squared the ball for Jermaine Defoe to score his second.
A few West Ham fans left but the majority stayed although the sigh of smoke from a flare was just another pointless and unsavoury production from the West Ham travelling support.
Nolan was taken off as Carlton Cole replaced him. This saw us go to a 4-4-2 but didn’t really help with our attacking play as Cole although willing looked poor and couldn’t control the ball most of the time he received it.
There was at least a little something for the away fans to cheer as on 82 minutes a cross from Joey O’Brien was met by the head of Andy Carroll whose looping header beat Lloris in the Tottenham goal to make it 3-1. It was of course the long awaited first goal from Andy Carroll.
The rain came lashing down as the final whistle went on a horrible day in North London.
Player Reviews
Jussi Jaaskelainen
The shot from Defoe was hit with real power for the first goal but still, I hate seeing keepers getting beaten by shots at their near post. Little he could do with other two goals. His kicking was better in terms of connectivity but not so much in terms of accuracy. 6
Joey O’Brien
From the moment he was booked within the first ten minutes he knew he couldn’t touch Gareth Bale again and the Welsh winger ran the game. I’m not suggesting that if O’Brien had not been booked it would have made all that much of a difference but still he gave himself an even more difficult task. O’Brien did provide an assist with his cross being met by Carroll. 5
James Tomkins
The two centre halves were offered little protection as Tottenham came through the middle time and time again and were allowed to shoot whenever they felt like. Tomkins tried hard to close things down but by the end of the game he looked ragged. 5
Winston Reid
He saved us a few times with some timely interceptions but he looked uneasy for most of the game and was beaten far too many times. The pressure on our backline was simply too much and Reid suffered from this. 5
George McCartney
You notice his lack of quality more against the better sides as they expose his weaknesses. As we do not have another senior left back on the books it means little to his chances of starting over the next few games. McCartney never got to grips with Lennon and was dragged all over the place. In the second half he struggled to get over the half way line to help Jarvis. A difficult day for him. 5
Mark Noble
Up against bigger stronger faster and ultimately better midfield players Noble really struggled. He gave the ball away, he looked out of breath for most of the game, he was putting in poor challenges, giving away free kicks, not going in hard enough when he needed to be and was slow to react to loose balls in around that midfield area. His yellow card will see him suspended for the trip to Old Trafford. 4
Mohamed Diame
Looked decent in the first 15 minutes but then disappeared from the game. He also kept losing the ball and although he was often trying to buy time by shielding the ball he simply cannot expect to get that much time on the ball at this level. 4
Kevin Nolan
Nothing he tried seemed to come off and against a team of athletes he looked sadly sub-standard. 4
Gary O’Neil
Kept drifting inside when we needed him as an outlet to play the ball out from the defence to. He is basic on the ball which is generally fine but when up against a good team you need a bit more and O’Neil doesn’t have it. 4
Modibo Maiga
As I said in the Stoke report, he isn’t a winger, he offers little in that role, he isn’t exactly skilful enough to beat a man and he was correctly removed after just over 30 minutes.
Andy Carroll
The supply to him was pretty poor but when the ball was played correctly (usually a diagonal pass) he would win the header. We didn’t get enough players ahead of him which meant any flick on led to little. He did manage to score his first goal with a header in the second half and we all hope that this will be the first of many. 6
Subs Used
Matt Jarvis (on for Maiga 31 mins)
If Nolan had put the ball across to him with a bit more pace then Jarvis would have surely been celebrating a goal. All in all his time on the pitch was pretty forgettable and he never got going. 4
Matthew Taylor (on for O’Neil 55 mins)
Tried to get involved but was too slow with his passing the majority of the time and was easily snuffed out of the game. 4
Carlton Cole (on for Nolan 68)
He ran about, he looked eager but when he got the ball he did very little with it.
Subs Not Used: Spiegel, Collins, Demel, Moncur
Goals: TH: Defoe (44,64), Bale (58) WHU: Carroll (82)
Bookings: TH: Defoe WHU: O’Brien, Noble
Tottenham Hotspur: Lloris, Walker, Caulker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Huddlestone, Sandro, Lennon, Bale, Dempsey, Defoe
Subs: Friedel, Gallas, Naughton, Dembele, Sigurdsson, Livermore, T. Carroll
Referee: Andre Marriner, 7
Attendance: 36, 043
Overall
Perhaps this was a bit of a wake up call in terms of where we are at in the quality of our squad. We have some good honest players and we will pick up results this season but as Sam Allardyce correctly pointed out, if you are going to beat teams like Tottenham all your players need to be on the top of their game and unfortunately for us, none of them were.
My main concern with the team at the moment is our attacking movement which seems very slow and one dimensional. We are suffering from the lack of creative players such as Yossi Benayoun and Ricardo Vaz Te so need to find another way of creating chances.
I really would like to see Matt Jarvis step up now as he has been here a little which and I am sure he has it in him to make things happen but after some good early signs he has dropped off which I hope to see change shortly.
Next Game – Manchester United (a) Wednesday 28th November 7.45pm Kick Off
Having suffered a defeat you wouldn’t really want to have to travel to Old Trafford just a few days later but that is exactly what we will be doing on Wednesday.
I do not accept that we go into this game feeling it is already lost and I am remaining positive that we can get something out of the game.
A disappointing day all round both on the pitch and in the stands. We can do better than that.
The View From Allardyce
"We've bounced back after every previous defeat this season, it will be a big ask to do it at Old Trafford but we have got to try at least to show much more what we are about.
We were very poor defensively for all three goals, we were not good enough in possession. When you keep giving away the ball against a team with the players they have you will eventually make mistakes and concede. There's not a lot I can do to defend the players. I don't accept the way we have played today."
"They are not in the best of form and they played Thursday. It is hard to get a result when you've come back from Europe but we made it easy for Tottenham."
[On The Chants]
"I didn't hear it. I don't hear what the fans say or do when I'm concentrating as a manager on a game of football," he said.
"They shouldn't be doing things like that, (but) it is the least of my worries at the minute, isn't it?
"What do you want me to say? If I didn't hear it I can't condemn it can I?
"I will wait and look at it myself and make a comment once I have listened to what they have said.
"I don't want to be a political animal, I'm here to talk about football and not what fans are saying and singing."
"You can accept defeat when you know your players have played their best and we haven't done that today."
"I don't accept the way my players have played today and I want them to bounce back."
Season 2011/12 Scorers
Kevin Nolan 5 (5 League)
Modibo Maiga 3 (1 League, 2 Cup)
Mark Noble 2 (2 League)
Mohamed Diame 1 (1 League)
Matt Jarvis 1 (1 League)
Matt Taylor 1 (1 League)
Winston Reid 1 (1 League)
Ricardo Vaz Te 1 (1 League)
Joey O'Brien 1 (1 League)
Andy Carroll 1 (1 League)
James Tomkins - 1 (1 League)
Nicky Maynard 1 (1 Cup)
Email: vinnywhufc@hotmail.com
Twitter: @vinnywhufc
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Replies - Newest Posts First ( Show In Chronological Order)
Mex Martillo
9:13 Tue Nov 27
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Thanks Vinny
Very glad to read your distaste for the disgraceful chants. Also pleased to read Gold and West Ham have the same opinion and are taking action. At times looks like a small steps, but I believe this leads to big changes.
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kirok1
6:32 Tue Nov 27
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Thanks Vinnie.
Covers the gaps in my stream from Sunday.
Didn't hear the bulk of the abuse but balanced view is appreciated.
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Hammer and Pickle
10:44 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Thank you for helping me get through a very dark evening, Vinny.
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inconsistant fc
10:03 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Thanks Vinny.
Agree re "challenge" from Noble, looks a poorer effort every time I see it.
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kylay
10:01 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Sir Alf 9:29 Mon Nov 26
agree with a lot of what you have said. Vaz Te provided a good bit of defensive cover that he never got any credit.
Thanks Vin, for your continued contribution.
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Wyayeman
9:44 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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That's a very balanced report Vincent, it's quite sad to see a club with such a proud heritage dishonoured by a group of it's own supporters like this. But hey I'm sure they will all justify their own behaviour these people usually do. It is good to see that so many people support your article. eep up the good work Vincent.... :0)
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Sir Alf
9:29 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Oh bugger, perhaps my worse thoughts on Diarra are coming true. From Physio Room site:
Benayoun - Knee Injury 1st Dec 12
A Diarra - Thigh Muscle Strain no return date R Vaz Te - Dislocated Shoulder 4th Jan 13
J Collison - Knee Injury 26th Dec 12
Vaz Te and Collison will be back before the Frenchman. That is one hell of a thigh muscle strain !!! Perhaps a slight cover up of something else? See what supporting West Ham does to you? Conspiracy theory inducing :-)
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oneteaminlondon
9:13 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Cheers Vinny. Totally agree with you on the chanting. I was there with oneteam junior (aged 12) and we didn't sing any Lazio or Arsenal songs. We're West Ham fans and we want to sing West Ham songs. No sane person can say that what happened to those poor unfortunates in Rome was right or anything other than a cowardly attack. We were in the minority who opted out. As for the Hitler stuff, I didnt hear any of that I was a bit surprised to hear hissing gas, haven't heard that for decades. Was surrounded by mouthy young mongs who looked like they couldnt punch their way out of a wet paper bag. The oddest of them all was a camp thug (a camp freddie type) who wore dainty leather gloves and a thick woollen snood and who appeared to enjoy giving the home fans his best upright Nazi salute. Shamefull stuff really.
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Sir Alf
9:11 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Yep cannot disagree with you Jasnik or Capitol Man.
I know there is nothing new in all this but as mentioned would feel better if I knew BFS was aware of it. You can understand why he would not mention it as it kinda hands the tactical plan to the opposition :-) I hope as you say that he does know. Also agree that it will probably be next Summer once, hopefully, we are safe in the Prem for another season :)
Of course, we do still have Diarra to come into the mix. I heard he was out until Xmas. Lets not hope its one of those like Demels and many others before where 3 months out turns into 12. Perhaps yopung Moncs deserves a chance? Gets consistently good reviews for the Dev squad and did well at AFC Wimbledon last season I think. Then there are those 2 young midfielders at Brum ?
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Jasnik
9:03 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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Alf - but equally its not very often we are going to come up against the likes of Bale also Defoe just was up for it all game.
Bale killed us he walked through our team like we were not there most of the time .
I was suprised with his performance and looking at our polayers so were they.
I thought lennon was not in the game , but popped up at the right time to put in Defoe for the tap in.
Dempsey drifted in and out of the game.
But AVB did set his team up the same as us and with their pace and personel won the midfield .
Think if we come up against another 5 in the middle with pace we will again strugle like you say.
But I think most teams will play 4 -4 -2 where our extra person makes the difference .
Sam was out thought yesterday .
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Capitol Man
9:03 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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In simple terms they have a better squad then we do. There was the difference in class to put the first two goals away, while we lack that spark of magic. Years of heavy investment on theirs. Short-term inventment on ours.
Alf - I think Sam knows the limitations of the squad we have - looking at the buys he's made he's certainly looking for more physicality, and that involves both pace and strength.
We'll see who else we can add, though I see it being next summer rather than in the transfer window.
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Sir Alf
8:33 Mon Nov 26
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I also thought Tomkins was decent enough and TBH the back four, with their limitations, were not why we lost this game.
I expect OM will rightly give me a hard time but I will say it again, and realise I am not alone in saying this for the last few seasons, we need more midfield mobility in the squad. When we encounter teams that play with 4 in midfield (sometimes 5 like when Dempsey dropped deep), we are cruelly exposed in midfield and cannot keep pace. If a team can pass and move at speed as a collective midfield, we are going to be on the end of a pasting especially if like yesterday we have to chase the game. If we had somehow mugged a goal against the run of play and then camped in our own half with 10 behind the ball we might have got something but therein lies Allardyce's blind spot.
He has understandably gone with big and physical players in the main because on a budget that is probably a better chance of keeping you up (yeah I know there are the odd exceptions like the Swanseas but even they will be down there probably at end of season). Its what he knows works and to be fair he tries also to get players that can mix it up and has even introduced the likes of Jarvis, Vaz Te and Yossi to help vary things a little.
However, you cannot get away from the fact that the majority of our midfield (collectively) are not mobile or quick over the grass which against teams liek Spuds, Wigan, Swansea and last season (Reading, Ipswich and others that play quick pass and move) sees us struggling to get and keep possession.
I know from my playing days (albeit senior and intermediate level) that you have to have some legs in midfield against teams that have mobility and movement or as hard as you try you end up chasing shadows and get mullered. Think about it.... Nolan, Noble, Taylor, O'Neill, Collison, Maiga, and even Yossi at 32/33 at that mobile and the likes of Diame will not be able to do it all and is not the defensive covering type anyway. Jarvis is quick but not known for defensive covering work (maybe he should be better at that when not in possession?). Will Diarra provide something different in this respect? He has the long legs and is a covering or holding type midfielder so maybe ?
So BFS needs to wake up to the imbalance in the squad and with G & S try to address it. I realise yesterday that it may look like players were not trying at times and that to BFS the passing was poor. At times sure but dont underestimate the collective mobility of Spuds who also closed down very well when we had the ball which is again easier for them as they had 4, sometimes 5 legging about with our "tortoise collective" Noble, Nolan and O'Neill trying to make space.
We have seen a lot of games especially away when our lack of mobility results in low % of possession but we have been good at denying chances and it was going that way yesterday despite our clear inferiority in this area. The goal just before half time dealt a psychological blow just as the inability (for reasons mentiioned) that we could not get or keep the ball. Spuds kept up the pressure in the middle and we cracked early 2nd half and that was it.
Apologies as always for the diatribe, and there is nothing here that many dont know, but we have a real weakness with midfield mobility that will get exposed against the teams that can play on the floor at pace, pass and move and who employ 4 or 5 in the middle.
My only concern or question is .... does Sam recognise it?
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Dr Moose
5:16 Mon Nov 26
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Lets hope they learn that rather and sit back and let an opposition with pace bear down on a defence that has little pace that the midfield offer more protection. Defoe should not have been allowed to stroll 25 yards to put the ball in the back of the net. It will also help to close up on Aaron Lenon rather than stand off and let him skin you. Those goals were embarrassing to concede.
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Jasnik
5:06 Mon Nov 26
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I know we conceded 3 goals but I thought Tomkins had a good game .
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Keep dreaming
5:06 Mon Nov 26
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ironwatch 4:49 Mon Nov 26
and also do u think the yids would not have donr the same if it was west ham in Italy ask that of yourself
That's not the point. It's fucking stupid regardless of who's doing it.
You dont wanna become a cunt just because you see one....
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ironwatch
4:49 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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over the top or what league of black getting involved from where I was standing every one was singing the lazio songs then the YIDS went 2 up and they where singing YID ARMY they should the whole of the home fans .
takeing the Lazio song out of it there was no different then any other year
as for the league of black what the getting involved for all of a sudden 40 odd years to fucken late jump on the band wagon cos there is fuck all to report
and also do u think the yids would not have donr the same if it was west ham in Italy ask that of yourself
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Steviedj
3:43 Mon Nov 26
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Thanks Vinny - couldn't have mirrored your sentiments better on the non-football side of things.
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Keep dreaming
2:37 Mon Nov 26
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Thanks Vinny. Sums it up nicely.
Glad BFS didnt like what he saw, but how on earth did we manage to play that bad?
And for the singing:
Grass out the fuckers and throw them in the river Thames with cement slippers on.
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davey
1:27 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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I feel sick to my stomach that these idiots that chanted about Nazis and gas chambers that follow west ham I hope they get life bans and also get a prison sentence, Disgraceful hang you head in shame idiots I would send them all over to Israel and let their army sort them out !!!!!
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Darby_
12:20 Mon Nov 26
Re: Vinny's Tottenham Report
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It's not the end of the world. We'll bounce back and continue to pick up points through this tough run of games.
There's not really much you can say about the game. They were up for it, they were at home and they have a much better team.
The media are making hay over the handful of spastics that sang Hitler songs, but that's their job, I suppose. Selling papers through outrage. Same as the Sheffield Utd thing.
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North Bank
12:04 Mon Nov 26
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Dapablo you soppy nugget, you weren't even at the game and yet feel that a few that sang a certain song tars us all with the same brush
Cheers for the write up Vinny, surprised you felt O'Neill deserved a 4, rather generous
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