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Billy Blagg 1:27 Fri Apr 6
Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

I've always thought it interesting that non-believers dismiss the Bible - certainly the New Testament, at least, - as utter fiction even though it is populated with people who have proven to have lived. It would seem odd that this document would have been passed down with one fictional character embedded in it.

I simply don't believe in a being who created the universe but I've always been comfortable with the idea that Jesus lived and was kind of a cross between Gandhi and Che Guevara, a man who's legend then became myth. We all know how people's lives can be become distorted after their deaths (witness Pope John Paul, Princess Diana and Che himself)

What do the God-fearing hordes of WHO think?

MrTrentReznor 9:13 Wed Apr 18
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Billy,
I don't think there was one man upon which Jesus is based.
It is much more likely that he is based on several of the so called messiahs at the time.

Neither was the idea of love and community that followed as radical as christians claim.
There are several religions that predate christianity that had love & community as a platform.

But is the 'love' of Jesus' message genuine or is it a Roman interpolation?

Jesus' supposed saying "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" was supposed to foster an air of political obedience.
Early Christian doctrine was that the different leaders were appointed by god & as such should be obeyed.
No harm if your life on earth in the draughty, rat infested hovel was awful, you were going to heaven & the wealthy man in the big house wasn't getting in.

For me christianity was just a tool to control people's minds & ensure obedience to their masters.

stomper 2:25 Wed Apr 18
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Marcus Quirinius Varus was Governor of Syria when Judea became a province, so he would have carried out a census - i think in 9AD. He was later stomped on by the Germans in the Black Forest

ohgodno 11:28 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 7:24 Tue Apr 17

Yeah you keep saying that but you know well I've called noone thick and that if I was in the mood I'd just post "all christians are cunts" as I've done many times before.

On the other hand it's good you've pulled your horns in. Claiming " christians are monotheistis" or even claiming they are all monotheistic trinitarianism when there are at least two massive sects of openly polytheistic christians and dozens of non-trinaitarian sects is a waste of energy.

Everything I've said could be tested and investigated so I'm happy to stand by it. You seem to think 2.1 billion people, in thousands of sects, descended from a henotheistic, polytheist religion, that grew syncretistically, all experience their god, christ and the holy ghost in exactly the same way. Good luck with that.

Billy Blagg 11:24 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ohgodno 11:06 Tue Apr 17
I will concede I may have got confused over the census issue. I distinctly remember reading about it some time ago and the text I read said that it was a recorded 'fact' but I may have read something about the Quirinius census pre: Google when it was quoted as a historical 'fact' when, so it appears, it wasn't. I wasn't particularly fazed by the idea that 'the whole world was to be taxed' as I had assumed that the movement of the 'whole world' merely meant a portion of the area but will admit, regardless, when I tried to find what I'd read there were no accounts of it.

However, I'm a bit confused when you say most of what I have written is completely wrong when I've not really made any claims of anything. The whole point of this post was to open debate on a subject that most IMHO set for or against purely on the stance that they believe in a supreme God or not. I've not really made any massive statements beyond that I'm puzzled as to why, for example, Homer's story of invincible heroes, myths and Gods - patently not an actual fact unless you believe that Gods sit on a mountain - sent scholars off looking for Troy while the Bible is dismissed out of hand by non-Christians because the basic tenet is nonsense (apologies to any Christian Whoer's there).

Surely both are stories built up orally over centuries and passed down from generation to generation? In short, if you wanted to convince people that God had sent his Son down then you could make up better stories than those in the Bible. It seems perfectly reasonable that there may have been a bloke called Jesus who was a bit of a radical thinker, spoke out against the Roman occupation of his country, died a horrible death and was given powers in death that he never had during his lifetime. This is 2012 and the same claims are being made for the Pope fer Christ's sake .... ;)

Outside of the usual claims made by Christians surely the most fundamental is best described in Melvyn Bragg's superb book 'The Adventure of English' in which a whole world-wide cultural upheaval was brought about by the sudden arrival of Christianity and belief in a God who was kind and benevolent rather than war-like and venegful. It's not too fanciful to say that it changed the whole path of humanity.

Even if he didn't live, you could argue we'd have to invent Jesus anyway.

WHOicidal Maniac 10:12 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ManorParkHammer 9:06 Tue Apr 17

I humbly apologise for an offence caused

Mr Tumble 9:24 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Classic chippy.

mentor 9:08 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

If he did live he was a lazy fucker.

ManorParkHammer 9:06 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

I am the opposite of a god botherer whoicidal.

I was just insulting smurface.

WHOicidal Maniac 8:26 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ManorParkHammer 7:33 Tue Apr 17

Didnt know you were a god-botherer MPH.

You are so right though. There is nothing more sad than a person who defends anothers incomprehensible, stupid, Idiotic, nonsensical and utterly unprovable views on religion. There are enough people in this world, who have been sucked in to believing in shite, to defend themselves....

ManorParkHammer 7:33 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

I love it when know it all atheists who style themselves as agnostics as they think that makes them even more clever, defend Christianity.

As a Christian I could not imagine anything more patronising to my faith.

Far more insulting than any anti-Religious tirade for sure.

Dishonest, mealy mouthed cunts those that do this.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 7:24 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ohgodno 3:45 Tue Apr 17

That's a bit rich. it's you that are saying many Christians are too thick to understand their own religion. I'm saying that most aren't.

I fail to see how that translates as me claiming to know 2.1 billion minds, but i guess when you are caught playing the old snide 'Christians are thickos' card it's always best to try to blame the other fellah.

Completely Hammered 6:43 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

How would a complete non-believer decide which is the "correct" religion? I worked with a Jehovah's Witness and he tried to convice me that JW's were correct and all other religions flawed.

ohgodno 3:45 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 3:34 Tue Apr 17


Even if I was (and I haven't) it would be slightly less derogatory that saying "all christians are X" Where X is a brute assumption you pulled out of your arse 15 minutes ago.

Good you know the minds of 2.1 billion
people. How do you hear your own thoughts above theirs?

ohgodno 3:42 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:58 Tue Apr 17


You keep quoting doctrine and dogma as if people care about that when expressing their faith or choosing to believe.

Go to Lordes or Knock or Fatima and tell me that Mary is not worshipped.

Yes protestants have made a number of accusations about the practices of the catholic church and catholics. Are you suggesting that they can all be dismissed without any consideration? Martin Luther was just an anti-semite with an attitude problem and nothing true to say.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 3:34 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Blimey. If saying that most Christians are too thick to understand the Trinity and are unconsciously polytheistic isn't derogatory, I'd hate to see you having a pop.

ohgodno 3:31 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:55 Tue Apr 17


I have no doubt that most christians understand the characters of the trinity. I have no doubt that most christians understand the doctrine.

I doubt a humans ability to, without effort, not follow their natural instincts and make these characters three individuals. You don't and we are not about to test either theory out.

You can characterize me as attacking christians as much as you wish however I think you know that if I were in the mood to do that I'd just do it. I've said nothing derogatory about christains or christianity.

Manilammer 3:06 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Catholics in the Philippines worship Mary without a shadow of a doubt ...

ManorParkHammer 3:03 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

Why did I have to pray to Mary if she has no superpowers?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:58 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ohgodno 2:41 Tue Apr 17

'Yeah she is. Saying she isn't is playing semantics. Many protestants accuse catholics of worshipping Mary. '

No she isn't. As I understand, she can intercede with God, who may or may not take notice of her. She has no powers of her own.

By the way, protestants have a history of making derogatory remarks about catholics. It doesn't make them true.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:55 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

ohgodno 2:36 Tue Apr 17

I have never met anyone apart from virulent anti-religionists who had any difficulty at all in understanding the concept of the Holy Trinity, mostly whilst not believing a word of it. As i recall, the Holy Trinity represents: the father (the old man with the beard in the chair), the Son (the human form, borne of a mortal woman, which the old man inhabited for 30 years for some reason or other) and the Holy Ghost or Spirit (which represents God's ability to be everywhere at once whilst simultaneously sitting in his chair).

It's not really a very difficult concept. I admit to a bit of confusion over the Holy Ghost at times when I was 6, but since he was never ever mentioned by himself, only as as being an aspect of the one God, I never paid him much heed.

My Sunday-school teachers must have been very good, because I comprehended all this whilst paying no attention, not believing a word of it and throwing bits of rolled up paper at my sister.

It's with some surprise that I learn that actual Christians can't get to grips with it at all.

If i were a cynical person, I would think that this is part of a snide strategy to portray Christians as fuck-wits and primitives, thus substituting for the dreary (and difficult) business of actually disproving any of their beliefs.

ohgodno 2:48 Tue Apr 17
Re: Good Friday Debate; Jesus Lived?

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:23 Tue Apr 17


Sorry, as well.

I don't think it is possible to understand the trinty without effort. It's a rubbish idea. It undermines itself by going against powerful human psychology. With little provocation people will personify things and give them a life of their own. They do it with rocks and trees ffs. It's the basis of all relgion. Trying to get people to do the three-are-one trick is like trying to get a dog to eat with a knife and fork. They will inevitably lapse into polytheism even if unthinkingly. This could easily be tested.

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