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The Stoat 4:03 Wed Jan 28
Youngsters depart from the Hammers
http://www.whufc.com/articles/20150128/young-pair-depart_2236884_4447121

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DJH 12:47 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
A quote I like from a top young manager - "Manage a football club like you're going to be there forever".

Tell that to David Moyes or Alan Irvine.

Alex V 12:46 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Mr Polite 12:42 Thu Jan 29

Martinez :(. Proof that the right attitude doesn't necessarily guarantee success :).

DJH 12:44 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Alex

Like us even Charlton get the odd Youth International on their books but without even checking I am pretty confident the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs have had more and some of these kids that have been on their books would have been signing for us previously because we actually competed on far more equal terms previously. As a result we are signing up relatively lesser standard players nowadays and we do see concern because part of the problem is not just identifying kids but keeping them and club are trying to do something about that.

How is it a cop-out? Allardyce's is being judged unless you know different is how the 1st team is doing, what is going on in the background is really not his problem unless the club say otherwise and you would expect that would come with a long term contract. I don't care who the manager is but if he is given a short contract I wouldn't expect him to blood youngsters unless they were good enough right now and I completely disagree with you other Rio because if we had someone that good I believe Allardyce would play him.

Mr Polite 12:42 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Who is that quote from Al

Refreshing if he loves by it

Alex V 12:41 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Mr Polite 12:28 Thu Jan 29

Excellent points. But as we've seen this season, Allardyce will give lip service to whatever he is told to do, but he ultimately will never believe in it. He has his way, and that's it.

Alex V 12:38 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
A quote I like from a top young manager - "Manage a football club like you're going to be there forever".

It's about recognising that the club is ultimately bigger than its manager. That actually giving good service to a club is not about padding your own win percentages. Sometimes you have to think further than the next game. And further than the first team squad.

Allardyce absolutely would not ever agree with that. We need to hire people who actually believe it and want to help the club develop.

Alex V 12:34 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Side of Ham 12:24 Thu Jan 29

Reid had the physique and enough experience to claim the place. Allardyce just picks the best option at the time - Reid happened to be it. And if Allardyce absolutely had to pick a youth I'm sure he would. But clearly nobody is asking him to do that. So if a youth wants to get near the side they have to be catch the manager's eye ahead of experienced top level campaigners. It's just so unlikely to happen unless there's an injury crisis. The idea of developing a first team player over time just doesn't seem to come up at the moment.

Rio's a good example. If you remember he took a good number of appearances for us to even find his ultimate position in the side. He made a lot of mistakes early on in his career. I just can't imagine it happening now. Maybe with his qualities he would eventually force his way in, but it would take a lot longer and I think any pragmatic short-termist manager simply wouldn't want to take the risk. Why should they?

Mr Polite 12:28 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
When we get a new manager (or god forbid if fatty gets a new contract) I'd like to see the owners give the manager targets not just about league position. They would need to make the targets public so that all fans know exactly what the manager is working towards and he can be judged against those targets.

Included in those targets should be something base around the Academy and Development squads.

I don't see any other way that a manager in the top flight can be convinced to look at the youth teams. Why would they take the risk when their life at that club can be so short and the pressure so high when the league position is the ONLY thing that matters

Side of Ham 12:28 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
*thought

Side of Ham 12:24 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
So how do you explain Reid making it when most though he'd failed in the PL?

Alex V 12:16 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Side of Ham 12:11 Thu Jan 29

I honestly don't think a Rio or a Brooking would make it now. They wouldn't get the opportunity.

Alex V 12:15 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
>>> Quite simply if we are recruiting badly we end up with not so good players

Why do we continue to get youth Internationals on our books. We still get touted players at youth level - it just seems to fall away after academy level. If it's as bad as you say then why do we see such little concern from the club over the standards?

>>> whilst other clubs a decade or so ago were stepping up their Academy networks and facilities we didn't match this

Spot on. And highlighted umpteen times on this forum. It wasn't hidden from view - it's been absolutely obvious that we were falling behind.

>>> again I fail to see no matter who manager is how they are responsible for this especially Allardyce who wasn't even at the club when most of these kids were taken on.

That's an utter cop-out. He is in charge now. Nothing has improved from what I can see. He has brought nobody through. I'm not convinced he's even tried to. If he wants to be an old-school all-knowing manager he has to be held responsible. Blaming whatever came before is pointless. What are we doing now? Who is responsible? Or do we just want to shift blame from coaches to players to modern life etc. None of those get to the root of the problem.

>>> Clubs are rarely run the way you seem to think they are unless a manager has a long term future at a club (something Allardyce has never had) and anyway with changes being made at the club someone clearly agrees something isn't working well.

Completely agree with this. We need a better system, and that goes from the top to the bottom. Hiring a new youth coach or any other cosmetic change is not the answer - the club needs a proper plan to improve this. Long-term.

As I said, the latest ten point pledge made ZERO mention of the academy. At the club that produced Bobby Moore, with such a strong local connection where the academy was everything to this club. ZERO mention. An absolute disgrace imo.

Side of Ham 12:11 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Alex V are you saying Allardyce wouldn't welcome or brought through a Rio or a Brooking. Fact is he's managed mainly in the top league where unless you are exceptional you will struggle to get in a 1st team squad and when in the championship has relied heavily on young players to get him promotions.

Alex V 12:04 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Eggbert Nobacon 11:43 Wed Jan 28

>>> We weren't producing players for years before allardyce

Actually I think we were. Now we could argue over their ultimate quality, but players were coming into the first team from the academy. I think that was a healthier state. Since Allardyce took over, nothing. And the young players that were in and around the first team have all gone bar Tomkins (who arguably hasn't progressed as well as expected).

>>> So maybe just maybe it isn't down to him his blueprint or style?

I don't necessarily disagree. We could argue endlessly and pointlessly over what percentage of fault we attribute to what factor. The question is whether things could be improved in the future.

I will continue to argue that the Allardyce 'style' simply excludes youth from the equation. I think it's a completely expected by-product of the way he runs his squads and produces results. Without explicitly saying so, what he has said about his methods all but explains it in black and white. To come through into the first team at this club right now you have to be absolutely exceptional - you'd have to literally bash the doors down with your ability. Anything less, the door will just be closed.

It's not healthy or good for our future imo.

DJH 12:02 Thu Jan 29
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Alex V

Quite simply if we are recruiting badly we end up with not so good players because whilst other clubs a decade or so ago were stepping up their Academy networks and facilities we didn't match this and simply ended up with lesser quality kids meaning we missed out on the ones we should really have expected to snap up, again I fail to see no matter who manager is how they are responsible for this especially Allardyce who wasn't even at the club when most of these kids were taken on.

I can only think of couple in Turgott and Chambers who were seriously rated at 16 and in Chambers case he has had injury problems, the rest of them were no better than what Charlton had (that comment came to me from someone who should know) and looking at the level these kids well end up compared to Charlton's it will probably show we got as much from them as could have reasonably expected.

I have little doubt no matter who the manager was the only way this group of kids would have made any impact is because we was in the Football League and pretty confident we will not regret releasing any of them, I am hope I am wrong but I said before even the best set ups will release the vast majority of their Academy players so I simply do not understand the outrage here unless you have other motives.

There are plenty of things to knock Allardyce for but blaming him for the failings of this particular crop of kids is not one of them and your rantings simply sound like someone with an agenda against him.

Why would Allardyce on a short term contract be expected to do anything to improve the Academy and unless specifically employed to do so.
Clubs are rarely run the way you seem to think they are unless a manager has a long term future at a club (something Allardyce has never had) and anyway with changes being made at the club someone clearly agrees something isn't working well.

Mr Polite 11:49 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Iike I said earlier, I think it is modern football on general and the fact that managers have such a short spell at clubs so they don't benefit from giving attention to the kids.

Has Sam helped? No not in the least bit but he is a symptom not the cause.

Eggbert Nobacon 11:43 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Alex

We weren't producing players for years before allardyce

So maybe just maybe it isn't down to him his blueprint or style?

The Sheer LENGTHS some go to on her to find reason to criticise never ceases to amuse me

Alex V 11:15 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
>>> there is little progress in young players throughout the Premier League other than those that are tend to be closer to exceptional rather than average that this crop of players with have are.

How do we know if they were average or misdeveloped? Both end in failure. If they were average why were they ever brought through in the first place? Why, as others have said, were some of them highly rated at younger ages? There are questions to be answered there.

>>> The real reason is that over the last decade we have been left behind in Youth Development and it shows

If that's true (and I don't think it's as bad as that) then the best we can say is that Allardyce has done absolutely nothing obvious to improve it. That's not progress imo.

>>> as I said to blame Sam really misses the point.

Absolutely agree. The club as a whole have questions to ask themselves. Is the Allardyce blueprint what we want going forward?

DJH 11:04 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Alex V

How does Sam differ from most other Premier League managers?

Tell me the clubs that are doing much differently?

What I would predict is that with the exception of clubs with limited resources there is little progress in young players throughout the Premier League other than those that are tend to be closer to exceptional rather than average that this crop of players with have are.

Had Sam inherited a Youth Cup winning side and totally ignored them then moan at him but to blame a bloke who has been here 3 years with little reason to believe he is here for the long term then you going to miss what the real problem is but if it suits your agenda then stick with it.

The real reason is that over the last decade we have been left behind in Youth Development and it shows but hopefully the owners have been addressing this, as I said to blame Sam really misses the point.

Alex V 10:45 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
DJH 10:31 Wed Jan 28

I completely disagree. One of the biggest criticisms of Allardyce is that he seems to offer a regressive blueprint for running a club that offers no opportunity whatsoever to youth. Either it's a coincidence, or we're seeing the results that some of us feared.

Would I directly blame him for any failures in youth coaching. Not directly, no. But the tone of the club, and maybe the emphasis in training, may well be entirely dictated by the manager. I think it's appropriate to ask whether youths were demotivated or wrongly guided or just ignored under Allardyce's regime.

The simple fact is that Allardyce proudly does not emphasise technique or controlled or possession based football - I think he would admit that. Is that healthy for academy products at West Ham?

I think the prospect for a youth coming through at West Ham is pretty simple. Do you have a outlandish physical attributes? If no, then you're close to doomed. Do you have 10 years of first-team experience? If no, then you're never going to get a look again in a choice against an experienced player. The ultimate pragmatist will never pick you.

I just don't think it's a healthy regime. Would need to be persuaded otherwise.

DJH 10:31 Wed Jan 28
Re: Youngsters depart from the Hammers
Sorry unless you have some kind of agenda I fail how you can criticise Sam over this?

I have seen plenty of these players and be it in performances for the Development squad or out on loan and NONE have done little to suggest they are of Premier League quality so I totally have no problem with the fact Sam has rarely thought any of them where worthy of inclusion in the 1st team squad and they are being released.

Let's have a dose of perspective in that even the best crop of kids will still see the majority released without getting close to their 1st team and yet somehow expectations are higher from what has always been at best a pretty average set of boys?

Personally I think over the last decade our whole Youth set up has been left behind by other London Premier League clubs and can only hope the current owners are more ambitious than than Mr Brown was.

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