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Bullet 4:34 Sat Feb 20
EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
BBC
Britain will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron has said.
The prime minister made his historic announcement in Downing Street after briefing the cabinet.
He said he would be campaigning to remain in a reformed EU - and described the vote as one of the biggest decisions "in our lifetimes".
Ministers immediately divide

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

BRANDED 9:40 Sat Oct 19
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Legal experts know that Boris Johnson's EU deal still doesn't cut it – here's why

I would remind MPs to look behind the shiny bright façade of the deal and examine its contents. Yes, it is a deal but what will it really mean?

Gina Miller17 hours ago
Boris Johnson is being hailed a hero for pulling off a revised Brexit deal in the least likely circumstances. Amid the bravado, after three long years of what were supposed to be the easiest negotiations on earth, I understand the temptation for exhausted MPs, with no time for proper scrutiny and with the fear of no deal hanging over them, to hold their noses in the unusual Saturday sitting and vote it over the line.

I would, however, remind them to look behind the shiny bright façade of the deal and examine its contents. Yes, it is a deal but what will it really mean? How will future generations hold you to account? Remember what is at stake: the future of our country, the freedoms and livelihoods of constituents and the union of the United Kingdom. The Johnson withdrawal agreement has tweaked a few paragraphs in the Northern Ireland protocol and the political declaration – ie the two annexes to May’s agreement from April 2019 – but much of it is a straight cut and paste of May’s deal. Parliament rejected that deal three times on the basis that it was not good enough. Johnson’s deal is no better and significantly worse in many respects.

Dominic Cummings’ propaganda machine is successfully keeping media focus on the NI protocol when the real scrutiny should be on the political declaration. The PD delivers the meat of the UK’s future relationship with its largest trading neighbour for the next 10 to 20 years.

Once approved and ratified, the withdrawal agreement will be binding and cannot be changed, but it deals with a very limited number of matters – money, EU citizens and the transition period. In a sense, it is only about the past. The political declaration, on the other hand, is about the UK’s future interaction in over 65 different sectors and the rights and opportunities for UK citizens to enjoy (or not) important economic and social benefits. The declaration is not binding on this government or any future government and can be changed at will by any future government. If, in due course, the EU is not happy with the terms of the future trade relationship, then the UK still risks leaving without a deal in 2020.

Below is a quick summary of the effects of the Johnson deal:

Boris Johnson and Brexit merchandise for sale at the Tory conference

Show all 10

Goods

In terms of goods, old paragraph 23 from May’s deal – “the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas” – has been deleted. That is a crucial difference. Rather than having (as per May’s deal) a close “economic partnership” and a trading relationship that is “as close as possible” with the EU, the UK will now be a distinct market, setting its own rules and trading on a hands-off Canada-style basis. There will be no single market or customs area, market access will be much more restricted and trade will not be frictionless.

Contrary to previous Tory desires to reduce regulatory burdens, there will be more customs checks and red tape when it comes to UK exports to the EU. UK standards will most likely be lower than the EU so some goods may not be able to be marketed and sold in 31 states if they do not meet EU standards. Companies will have to comply with multiple rules and redesign their products for different markets. Or they will decide to comply with EU standards anyway. Products may become more expensive (due to lower economies of scale) or face delays.

In terms of EU imports to the UK, they are most likely to be of a superior standard so will meet the UK minimum requirements. They’re likely to be cheaper (larger scale and one-stop production for both markets) and transit faster. This may put UK businesses at a competitive disadvantage.

You also have to analyse this scenario in a wider WTO context – we still don’t know whether the UK will apply zero tariffs for imports from the rest of the world or insist on product standards. UK agriculture and manufacturing could face a double whammy if sales are undercut by cheaper EU and foreign imports.

Maintaining standards

There is a new section XIV – Clause 77 – that requires the UK to uphold the common high standards applicable in the EU and UK in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environment, climate change and relevant tax matters. The UK cannot undermine the EU level playing field by allowing circumvention of EU rules.

This sounds positive, but this is a non-binding commitment, not enforceable until written into an FTA. The UK will no longer be committing to the EU rule book but just a loose commitment to observe high standards – whether from the EU or the rest of the world. In many areas, the EU standards are replicated elsewhere, for example, the EU competition rules are being copied in Hong Kong, China and Africa, so the idea that the UK will be able to move away from them when dealing with other countries is wholly misleading.

Agencies

EU rules for regulated industries are often made through regulatory networks and agencies where the UK currently enjoys full participation in rule-making. Now, the UK has downgraded its involvement to exploring “the possibility of cooperation” within the EMA (European Medicines Agency), EBA (European Banking Authority) and EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency). The wording is weak and offers no guarantees. For other networks, like telecoms, energy, transport and chemicals, the wording is feebler, with access dependent on its extent of alignment and cooperation. It is clear that the UK will only have observer status – meaning that we will be rule-takers without any say in the formulation of policy or actual decision-making regarding authorisations or sanctions.

Services

As over 80 per cent of the UK economy is driven by services, which has been a huge success story for UK business in the EU, there is the risk of severe dereliction of duty if MPs do not focus on the service industry. This is not just financial services but digital broadcasting, insurance, legal and accounting advice, consultancy, e-commerce, data and transportation services, which to date are provided on a pan-European basis across all 31 EU/EEA states.

Here, the Johnson and May deals are identical. Services will no longer benefit from full passporting in all 31 EU/EEA states. Instead, they will be relegated to the WTO framework with possible add-ons from a Canada-style free trade agreement, which are vastly inferior to the Lisbon Treaty. So, what does this mean?

85 per cent of our economy (services) will effectively be in the same position as a no-deal scenario.
WTO terms for services are rudimentary compared with the EU rules – they allow minimum access to markets and prohibition on direct discrimination. Host states still retain discretionary power to impose regulatory barriers and standards.
There is a limited equivalence regime for financial services.
When it comes to digital services, there is no guarantee of rule of origin so broadcasters and programmers (Sky, Netflix) will need to move registration and staff to other member states.
In e-commerce, there is limited cooperation on rules but no guarantees. Courier services are not covered, so one impact may be that Amazon cannot provide next day deliveries from any order fulfilled from an EU member state.
Many sectors are dependent upon the EU’s state of the art passporting regimes – eg life insurance, travel insurance, health insurance, car insurance, financial services, architects, doctors, nurses, teachers and lawyers. They are all governed by their home state rules and do not have to comply with 31 different sets of requirements.

What this will mean in practice? As an example, a UK law firm will no longer be able to provide advice and legal representation across multiple states. Instead, their lawyer will have to requalify, establish and comply with Belgian rules and pay registration and insurance fees in both countries. That will not give the right to practise from Belgium across other EU countries.

According to the Law Society, the UK legal sector is the largest in the EU and contributed more than £26bn to the economy in 2017. EU law firms are keen to replace the UK’s success. The APPG on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has recommended that this “devastating” impact should be “avoided at all costs”. That story is replicated across multiple different business sectors.

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Governance and diplomacy

Clauses 123 and 124: Changes to Part II remove the prior commitment in May’s deal to engage in cooperation and dialogue to liaise with the EU to work as partners on regional and global issues. This reaffirms the UK’s autonomy and lack of commitment to cooperate or align its geopolitical strategic agenda. This means a wider global shift in diplomacy and international standing as the UK is not committing to align with the EU in global politics but has the freedom to align itself with other world powers (notably the US). This may cause turbulence in wider markets such as Asia, Japan and South Korea.

The dispute resolution mechanisms set out in May’s deal have also been altered. Disputes may be determined by the Joint Committee and Arbitral Tribunals, but there will be no obligation to refer to the Court of Justice of the European Union (as per May’s deal) but only a recommended reference where the dispute raises a question of interpretation of EU law. The ruling from the CJEU will be binding on the UK and there will be sanctions in terms of suspended access to markets and financial compensation if it does not adhere to the ruling.

All in all, when Johnson did his victory lap in the European parliament yesterday, I rather think his fellow leaders were celebrating their upper hand in the negotiations and the concessions accepted by the UK in the last desperate hours. Johnson set out to procure a Rolls Royce but came back with a second-hand Reliant Robin.

This article was written by Gina Miller with expert legal input from barrister Anneli Howard

Darlo Debs 1:21 Sat Oct 19
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Side Block.said he liked them, i am.entitled to.an opinion as to why i.don't.

We'd not even be going through all.this bollocks if wasn't for Farage being the tail.wagging the Tory dog so yes sadly he is part of the Brexit process. But am not gonna fuck off until.i decide to. Thanks for the pleasant suggestion though.

Gavros 11:21 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
I always saw it as fairly pointless, but in any case the outer house of the Court of Session always decides against him to allow the inner house (the senior one) to judge on appeal, where he usually wins. Dont know if he's going to bother appealing this time. The letwin amendment potentially far more important.

Kaiser Zoso 10:59 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
You should have told your mate Jolyon if you’re such a fucking expert, it would have saved him thousands?

Gavros 10:40 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
No. As i said before all the government need to do is amend the prior Rees Mogg amendment to make it effectivly null and void.

Gutted thst you cant seem to work out whats actually significant or not?

Kaiser Zoso 10:03 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Scotland's highest civil court has dismissed a legal bid to stop the UK government from passing its proposed EU withdrawal agreement.
Anti-Brexit campaigners had argued the deal contravened legislation preventing Northern Ireland from forming part of a separate customs territory.
However, Lord Pentland ruled the application was "misconceived and unjustified".
Campaigner Jo Maugham QC said the case was now unlikely to proceed further.

Gutted?

BRANDED 9:55 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Not really fixed Ponceon

Mike Oxsaw 9:02 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Is Letwin determined to go down in history as the person who defied the democratic will of the people? Fucking vain pansy if that's the case.

Johnson 9:02 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
BRANDED 8:24 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Brexit vote in Commons could be delayed in extraordinary move by MPs to prevent Brexit


Fixed it for you

Gavros 8:41 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Another excellent piece of legislative casting by Letwin. Johnson may also be perfectly happy to go with it too because it gives the impression he stuck by his promise and gives to to get the needed legislation done.

Gavros 8:37 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Yes, as i said earlier the Letwin Amendment if passed makes the deal effectively an indicative vote, forces an extension, and as a result further in depth scrutiny of deal in WAB and other Bills long enough to pass them and to add further amendments if necessary including against crashing out at any point and a conformatiory referendum before rhe actual vote takes place. Itll look like brexit is done ("we left the 31st October") but in reality far from that.

Gavros 8:37 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Yes, as i said earlier the Letwin Amendment if passed makes the deal effectively an indicative vote, forces rue extension, and as a result further in depth scrutiny of deal in WAB and other Bills long enough to pass them and to add further amendments if necessary including against crashing out at any point and a conformatiory referendum before rhe actual vote takes place. Itll look like brexit is done ("we left the 31st October") but in reality far from that.

BRANDED 8:24 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Brexit vote in Commons could be delayed in extraordinary move by MPs to prevent risk of no-deal

Side of Ham 8:17 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Debs, two individuals who's politics you don't like before you even get onto them personally.

Just fuck off, it's boring they are part of this Brexit process and people had to vote in or out and they represent out, it doesn't mean leavers have to be so subservient as you, and they can use them/support them for the sole purpose of wanting them to see Brexit through and that is all.

Chill, learn to do better comebacks and don't rip off other people in doing so.....it'll be hard for you i know, being a comfort blanket type....

ChillTheKeel 7:49 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Do you honestly think Chill your avoidance of things gets you anywhere....and i don't mean on this site.....you might be able to get in the right body if you did....


______

That's some proper Class A rambling. That or hooch. Probably the latter to be fair.

Darlo Debs 7:41 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Not talking party politics at all, i am talking about 2 individuals.

Side of Ham 7:37 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Do you honestly think Chill your avoidance of things gets you anywhere....and i don't mean on this site.....you might be able to get in the right body if you did....

ChillTheKeel 7:31 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
HA! I bet you've lost count on how many bottles you've downed today, you rambling fucking mess

Side of Ham 7:27 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Chill, Corbyn's shit at what he does but you believe in him like a little lost lamb.

On that basis everyone knows there's no reason to wait all day to put a no mark like you in your place....you're on here constantly for long periods baring a few days here and there.

...now tell us you don't stick up for ol' Jezzbollah.

Side of Ham 7:13 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Debs this is where you party politics obsessives are idiots, you'd rather take this off on a tangent where ALL leaders of parties can be deemed something atrocious just for you to think you are doing the morally right thing spouting your shit about them we ALL already know.

Fuck off and start a party politics thread to discuss these cunts. On this thread (Brexit achievement) they are a means to an end.

ChillTheKeel 7:11 Fri Oct 18
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron

Side of Ham 6:57


Look at Snide, he waits on here all day for any chance to pounce on whichever poster the weirdo drunk is currently stalking

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