Stubbornness — on all sides

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

For as long as many of us can remember, West Ham have bounced between relegation fights and promotion pushes. In plenty of those seasons we got through because we stuck together and the place was loud when it mattered.This feels like one of those seasons where we could end up on the wrong side of the line. And if we’re honest, something around the club feels off.Since the move from Upton Park, I can’t help feeling that a section of the fanbase almost sees relegation as a punishment for Sullivan. But if that happens, the only people who really pay for it are the team and the supporters. A flat, divided crowd doesn’t help anyone. We’ve all seen on European nights that the London Stadium can be a great atmosphere when everyone’s at it.At the same time, it’s hard to know what Sullivan actually wants. He could probably have sold up for a big profit when we were pushing top six and doing well in Europe, but he didn’t. From the outside, it just looks like stubbornness on both sides.My kids don’t have the same attachment to Upton Park — they were too young. They just love West Ham as it is. Maybe that says something. Maybe those of us still hung up on the move need to accept it’s not changing, and maybe Sullivan needs to see that the relationship with a lot of the fanbase is worn out.Let the next generation just support the club without carrying all this baggage. Right now it feels like all of us — Sullivan and some of us older fans — are getting in the way.West Ham should be about what comes next, not just what’s gone.
 

 

[El Scorchio]

Football has changed. Well at least top flight football. It’s a tv first sport now. That’s why there are so many fucking games of football every other day all across Europe etc.  tournament after tournament blah blah 

and that’s why the stadium has never mattered to the owners apart from how cheaply they could get a place to showcase their “tv show”. 

Covid showed you could continue football even without people in the bloody stadium. Also having such a central stadium in London means they can alway gets bums on seats (even if there not proper fans). 

the fallacy is that if we had a better ground we would be a better performing club. Nope. It’s still Sullivan making the decisions. We’d still be where we are. Look at spurs, new stadium same club. The soul of any club is not the ground. It’s a combination of the fans and the owners. It’s what’s in their heads. 

stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track. 






 

 

Disagree. The stadium matters to them. We are much more valuable as a club both financially and to a prospective buyer with that stadium fully owned rather than rented and they know it. I think they are just playing chicken with the government/mayor/whoever to get it at a good price before immediately selling the lot for a big fat profit and fucking off laughing without a second thought as to what they leave behind. 

However the other game of chicken they have been playing with doing just enough to stave off relegation and a full on fan revolt while spending as little as possible of their own money in the meantime seem to have finally caught up with them and gone tits this season. One ‘change’ they failed to see coming was that th promoted sides wouldn’t be as shit as th last few years and they are caught right out. 

 

I don’t understand the logic. Land per sqm around the country varies massively. Anfield or Old Trafford can’t be worth anywhere near the value of any London clubs stadium land but the clubs themselves are worth billions. These are international brands where a vast amount of their income comes from tv money, branding and trophies. In the modern world the stadium has ceased to be the moray important asset a club has.

For example, even though West Ham will make more money from gates and food sales etc than Bournemouth the valuation difference between the two clubs is more about our brand and history / location as we don’t own the stadium. In the tv age both clubs are getting in silly money. 

What I mean is the club is worth substantially more with a stadium (and indeed the land this one is on) on the balance sheet than without it. So they’ll make more money when they sell if they are able to acquire it first. Which I believe is what they are waiting for. To walk away with the maximum amount of money. That’s what they wanted all along. So therefore it’s very important to them. 

[eusebiovic]

"stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track."

absolute horse shit. they (gold, the midget & brady) talked about the world class team in the world class stadium. they lied about many things. you come across as the new age type they want, quite willing to fork out £50 for a Foi Gras Baguette, and washed down with a £30 glass of Pimm's. and you can fuck off with the covid bollocks, the game is the fans

 

I’m not sure why anyone would believe the words of a pornographer?
they said whatever they needed to say to make money on the Upton Park site. The reality is they were never ambitious in any true sense and Sullivan at least is no bill kenwright. Look how they treated Birmingham city. 
Any ambition Sullivan has is tied to his own vanity. 

Are you that fella with the two heads from The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy that is constantly contradicting himself at every turn? 

Zaphod Beeblebrox wasn't it? 

You might think about making that one your future username...

[threesixty]

Football has changed. Well at least top flight football. It’s a tv first sport now. That’s why there are so many fucking games of football every other day all across Europe etc.  tournament after tournament blah blah 

and that’s why the stadium has never mattered to the owners apart from how cheaply they could get a place to showcase their “tv show”. 

Covid showed you could continue football even without people in the bloody stadium. Also having such a central stadium in London means they can alway gets bums on seats (even if there not proper fans). 

the fallacy is that if we had a better ground we would be a better performing club. Nope. It’s still Sullivan making the decisions. We’d still be where we are. Look at spurs, new stadium same club. The soul of any club is not the ground. It’s a combination of the fans and the owners. It’s what’s in their heads. 

stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track. 





 

 

Disagree. The stadium matters to them. We are much more valuable as a club both financially and to a prospective buyer with that stadium fully owned rather than rented and they know it. I think they are just playing chicken with the government/mayor/whoever to get it at a good price before immediately selling the lot for a big fat profit and fucking off laughing without a second thought as to what they leave behind. 

However the other game of chicken they have been playing with doing just enough to stave off relegation and a full on fan revolt while spending as little as possible of their own money in the meantime seem to have finally caught up with them and gone tits this season. One ‘change’ they failed to see coming was that th promoted sides wouldn’t be as shit as th last few years and they are caught right out. 

 

 

I don’t understand the logic. Land per sqm around the country varies massively. Anfield or Old Trafford can’t be worth anywhere near the value of any London clubs stadium land but the clubs themselves are worth billions. These are international brands where a vast amount of their income comes from tv money, branding and trophies. In the modern world the stadium has ceased to be the moray important asset a club has.

For example, even though West Ham will make more money from gates and food sales etc than Bournemouth the valuation difference between the two clubs is more about our brand and history / location as we don’t own the stadium. In the tv age both clubs are getting in silly money. 

[threesixty]

.....says the man who has never been to a game.

 

 

You’re weird. 

[threesixty]

"stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track."

absolute horse shit. they (gold, the midget & brady) talked about the world class team in the world class stadium. they lied about many things. you come across as the new age type they want, quite willing to fork out £50 for a Foi Gras Baguette, and washed down with a £30 glass of Pimm's. and you can fuck off with the covid bollocks, the game is the fans

 

 

I’m not sure why anyone would believe the words of a pornographer?
they said whatever they needed to say to make money on the Upton Park site. The reality is they were never ambitious in any true sense and Sullivan at least is no bill kenwright. Look how they treated Birmingham city. 
Any ambition Sullivan has is tied to his own vanity. 

[Massive Attack]

Fans hate the Stadium because they hate the Stadium.

[Takashi Miike]

"stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track."

absolute horse shit. they (gold, the midget & brady) talked about the world class team in the world class stadium. they lied about many things. you come across as the new age type they want, quite willing to fork out £50 for a Foi Gras Baguette, and washed down with a £30 glass of Pimm's. and you can fuck off with the covid bollocks, the game is the fans

[El Scorchio]

Football has changed. Well at least top flight football. It’s a tv first sport now. That’s why there are so many fucking games of football every other day all across Europe etc.  tournament after tournament blah blah 

and that’s why the stadium has never mattered to the owners apart from how cheaply they could get a place to showcase their “tv show”. 

Covid showed you could continue football even without people in the bloody stadium. Also having such a central stadium in London means they can alway gets bums on seats (even if there not proper fans). 

the fallacy is that if we had a better ground we would be a better performing club. Nope. It’s still Sullivan making the decisions. We’d still be where we are. Look at spurs, new stadium same club. The soul of any club is not the ground. It’s a combination of the fans and the owners. It’s what’s in their heads. 

stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track. 



 

 

 

Disagree. The stadium matters to them. We are much more valuable as a club both financially and to a prospective buyer with that stadium fully owned rather than rented and they know it. I think they are just playing chicken with the government/mayor/whoever to get it at a good price before immediately selling the lot for a big fat profit and fucking off laughing without a second thought as to what they leave behind. 

However the other game of chicken they have been playing with doing just enough to stave off relegation and a full on fan revolt while spending as little as possible of their own money in the meantime seem to have finally caught up with them and gone tits this season. One ‘change’ they failed to see coming was that th promoted sides wouldn’t be as shit as th last few years and they are caught right out. 

[Eerie Decent]

.....says the man who has never been to a game.

[threesixty]

Football has changed. Well at least top flight football. It’s a tv first sport now. That’s why there are so many fucking games of football every other day all across Europe etc.  tournament after tournament blah blah 

and that’s why the stadium has never mattered to the owners apart from how cheaply they could get a place to showcase their “tv show”. 

Covid showed you could continue football even without people in the bloody stadium. Also having such a central stadium in London means they can alway gets bums on seats (even if there not proper fans). 

the fallacy is that if we had a better ground we would be a better performing club. Nope. It’s still Sullivan making the decisions. We’d still be where we are. Look at spurs, new stadium same club. The soul of any club is not the ground. It’s a combination of the fans and the owners. It’s what’s in their heads. 

stadium hate (although I understand it) is probably more of a proxy for hating the owners really. If we had Saudis pumping in billions on players and we were in the CL every week I doubt anyone would give a shit about a running track. 
 

[eusebiovic]

As I said before if there isn't a covenant on that land to ensure a football club remains there in perpetuity regardless of whatever else gets redeveloped then the future is bleak.

We all know that Athletics is expendable...despite the crap official line about providing an Olympic legacy.

As long as that stadium continues to lose money hand over fist then the LLDC will eventually be forced to sell the land and sort out an alternative facility. 

Of course, they are under no obligation to ensure the latter if the finances don't stack up. They have even less obligation to ensure that a football club remains there. We are solely relying on the word of our owners that their magnificent negociating skills have ensured this won't ever happen.

It''s certainly better for our club to have a Mayor of London who from the Labour Party. That's not a personal endorsement btw but they are far more likely to try and do the club and fans a favour if the worst ever comes to pass. It would be political suicide not to.

If a current day Tory gets back in, what guarantee does anyone have that they won't sell us out to make good on Boris Johnson's disastrous legacy of brazen corruption? As we all know, Newham Council is solid Labour territory so it would be just like them to act out of spite wouldn't it? 

Never discount anything
 

[WHU(Exeter)]

"Time moves on, whether we like it or not"

Thanks for that incredible insight, that I guess a lot of us had not considered before.

As time does move on, (thanks for the heads up), is there any chance that Sullivan and Brady could turn around their inept ways of running a football club, in TIME to stop them becoming the worst owners in the entire history of the football league goes, in respect of overseeing relegations from the top tier?

Do they need some kind of Back to the Future type car, to avert the utter mess they've created?

 

[Massive Attack]

54,000 plus loyal West Ham season ticket holders (being one of them) and all those conned in to joining a money making waiting list scheme at a fucking tenner a pop were willing to trust the Board and embrace change, only to be badly let down with what they delivered, both on and off the distant pitch.

The only stubbornness has ever come from GSB to railroad the support in to that cunthole Stadium that most of the genuine fans didn't want - you can shove your rigged petition right up your arse before you pipe up with that one. And now to stubbornly keep hanging on to it all still purely for greed and ego. It's fucking pathetic and they've now successfully alienated one of the most loyal and passionate set of fans in world Football. Fucking bravo work.  

The best thing the stubborn cunts can do now is to get the huge hint and fuck off so us genuine fans can try and pick up the remaining pieces to try and make the best of it again in the future. They've done enough damage. BS OUT  

[El Scorchio]

What a fucking bizarre take the OP has here. Feels like a poor attempt at a PR exercise. No-one else has struggled with all this 'change', have they? Then a bit of fucking introspection on the owner's part will lead them to the conclusion that they aren't up to the job and should fuck off sharpish if they have the club's interests at heart as they claim.

Which we know they don't. The only interest they have is lining their pockets. The end goal was to get the stadium and sell the club for a big profit- a fucking unrealistic one as well. Of course they've well and truly fucked that up. Seems they are as deluded over his valuation of the club as they are over his valuation of players in the transfer market and ability to spot and acquire talent.

[Massive Attack]

Life changes gradually, but one day you look around and it feels unrecognisable. There is no bogeyman, just the reality that time moves on whether we like it or not.

Nice chatting guys

Just tell your pals/bosses to hurry up and fuck off out of our Club sharpish, WhereDoesThisNightmareEnd.

[Mike Oxsaw]

Just offer Sullivan a casino in Cardiff. He won't be able to get out of the club quick enough.

[eusebiovic]

What a patronising fool

I haven't been able to go to every home game plus a few away ones for years due to the fact my responsibilities are different to the very few I had in my youth 30 odd years ago.

Which I'm sure goes for quite a few of us on here as well.

What's any of that got to do with being outraged at how abysmally badly the club is being run? 

If the current ownership did finally get their hands on that plot of land then you'd think it would be on the condition that a football club must always remain on that site as well as provision for a smaller athletics arena or upgrading the Crystal Palace track or elsewhere.

If none of that happens - then the club we knew is fucked.

It's quite probable - anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows what they are up to.

 

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

Life changes gradually, but one day you look around and it feels unrecognisable. There is no bogeyman, just the reality that time moves on whether we like it or not.

Nice chatting guys

[BerlingtonBertie]

What an absolute bore - is it another new posting name for ‘Sven’

[eusebiovic]

There seem to be a few different camps of thought regarding Sullivans time at West Ham, which is understandable given how emotional and longstanding it is. But it is worth stepping back and looking at the broader reality.

 Sullivan has been our owner since 2010. Sixteen years likely puts him among the longest serving owners across the ninety two league clubs. That is close to a generation. In that time we have had fourteen consecutive seasons in the top flight, the second longest run in our history, while both football and society have changed significantly.

 The game has not stood still and the world has evolved rapidly. Diversity and inclusion becoming mainstream, the dominance of big tech, and the wider shift toward profit driven models have all shaped modern football. The traditional matchday experience has been influenced by forces far bigger than one owner or one club.

 Sullivan will always be remembered as the man who moved us from Upton Park to Stratford. Realistically most modern business minded owners would have taken the same opportunity. In his time we have seen most Premier League clubs change ownership, some successfully and many without improvement.

 That does not make him beyond criticism. Television and corporate income have often been prioritised over matchgoing fans, which is a wider Premier League trend. Many fans could have accepted leaving Upton Park if the new ground had seated us right on top of the pitch. But Sullivan prioritised savings and cash flow, and that will define how history remembers him.

The words of a belly-crawling, boot-licking, fawning buffoon whose thoughts will almost certainly never reflect those of most West Ham fans.

Just repeating the words “in reality” and “realistically” doesn’t make them true. I’ve been a West Ham fan since the age of two, and was a season ticket holder for decades. I’m not a patch on many other West Ham fans, and won’t pretend to be. But this original poster is as far removed from my “reality” as it’s possible to be.

And with that, I’m off this fishing thread.

I feel pretty embarrassed just having to read the conformist, gutless and subsurvient attitude of whoever this fuckin' plank is.

Where Does This End? 

With a massive shart as far as I can smell

[southbankbornnbred]

There seem to be a few different camps of thought regarding Sullivans time at West Ham, which is understandable given how emotional and longstanding it is. But it is worth stepping back and looking at the broader reality.

 Sullivan has been our owner since 2010. Sixteen years likely puts him among the longest serving owners across the ninety two league clubs. That is close to a generation. In that time we have had fourteen consecutive seasons in the top flight, the second longest run in our history, while both football and society have changed significantly.

 The game has not stood still and the world has evolved rapidly. Diversity and inclusion becoming mainstream, the dominance of big tech, and the wider shift toward profit driven models have all shaped modern football. The traditional matchday experience has been influenced by forces far bigger than one owner or one club.

 Sullivan will always be remembered as the man who moved us from Upton Park to Stratford. Realistically most modern business minded owners would have taken the same opportunity. In his time we have seen most Premier League clubs change ownership, some successfully and many without improvement.

 That does not make him beyond criticism. Television and corporate income have often been prioritised over matchgoing fans, which is a wider Premier League trend. Many fans could have accepted leaving Upton Park if the new ground had seated us right on top of the pitch. But Sullivan prioritised savings and cash flow, and that will define how history remembers him.

The words of a belly-crawling, boot-licking, fawning buffoon whose thoughts will almost certainly never reflect those of most West Ham fans.

Just repeating the words “in reality” and “realistically” doesn’t make them true. I’ve been a West Ham fan since the age of two, and was a season ticket holder for decades. I’m not a patch on many other West Ham fans, and won’t pretend to be. But this original poster is as far removed from my “reality” as it’s possible to be.

And with that, I’m off this fishing thread.

[Massive Attack]

He'll be remembered as a money grabbing Club killing cսnt. Slap that on his headstone.  

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

There seem to be a few different camps of thought regarding Sullivans time at West Ham, which is understandable given how emotional and longstanding it is. But it is worth stepping back and looking at the broader reality.

 Sullivan has been our owner since 2010. Sixteen years likely puts him among the longest serving owners across the ninety two league clubs. That is close to a generation. In that time we have had fourteen consecutive seasons in the top flight, the second longest run in our history, while both football and society have changed significantly.

 The game has not stood still and the world has evolved rapidly. Diversity and inclusion becoming mainstream, the dominance of big tech, and the wider shift toward profit driven models have all shaped modern football. The traditional matchday experience has been influenced by forces far bigger than one owner or one club.

 Sullivan will always be remembered as the man who moved us from Upton Park to Stratford. Realistically most modern business minded owners would have taken the same opportunity. In his time we have seen most Premier League clubs change ownership, some successfully and many without improvement.

 That does not make him beyond criticism. Television and corporate income have often been prioritised over matchgoing fans, which is a wider Premier League trend. Many fans could have accepted leaving Upton Park if the new ground had seated us right on top of the pitch. But Sullivan prioritised savings and cash flow, and that will define how history remembers him.

[Takashi Miike]

not even the sporting media's self appointed worst owner ever (he isn't), Mike Ashley, was claiming interest on loans to his club. of course they're villains.

[Massive Attack]

 

....With Sullivan finally selling up and fucking off/or dying of old age (77 tomorrow I see), whichever comes first I'm not fussy. That's Whereitends.